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I'm going to preface this that I'll be downvoting any answers or comments that go after specific community members. I know question closure is a contentious topic but I think both the asker and close-voters here are acting in good faith. I'd encourage people to do the same.


This question was closed as "needs details or clarity". I think it should be reopened. The original question was clear:

So [bayesian degrees of belief] seem to match degree of belief with actual actions taken in the form of bets. For example, one can claim that they have a 20% credence in God. By the framework mentioned above, this means that they would bet 0.2 units on a bet that pays off 1 unit if they’re right and 0 if they lose.

But given that this situation is merely considered as a hypothetical, and that this kind of bet (for the most part) doesn’t actually take place, how do we know what we would bet on? If we can’t, how do we know what our actual degree of belief in a proposition is in the first place?

In any case, it has now been edited to:

So there seems to be two possible ways we assess degree of belief: with the mathematics that lies behind odds, and with actual actions taken in the form of bets. So, in any given situation the odds are merely considered a hypothetical since unless a bet actually is made, we don't know what we believe if haven't decided to bet, right? If we don’t bet, do we know what our actual degree of belief in a proposition is in the first place?

Both of these phrasings are, I think, clear and answerable. Answers have a wealth of relevant sources to reference, e.g. bayesian epistemological arguments about Dutch books, etc.


Here are the objections raised against it:

You ask: "how do we know what our actual degree of belief in a proposition is in the first place?" - If you yourself do not know how firm your belief is, how shall an external source find the answer for you?

Can we know that we saw red yesterday, and it was the same red that we see today. After all, we cannot actually time travel and verify it. And as we trust our memory, faulty though it is, we'll just have to trust our imagination to let ourselves know how we would hypothetically behave, as we do in any planning. And yes, we may guess wrong, as with everything else, and/or our bet may change when it comes to making it. Italicizing and adding "actually" do not do the work you expect of them.

I don't want to be facetious or patronizing, but you should read up both on probability theory (and its foundations) and on psychology. Also, ask your neighbors, friends or family how sure they are that it will (or will not) rain tomorrow (assuming it ever rains where you live). Then tell them that what they're saying is nonsense, since it will either rain or not, so "how sure" makes no sense. See how they react.

While it's clear from context that I think that the comments found the question confusing or the context it was situated in unclear, it's not really clear what was confusing, so there's not an obvious way to edit the question. The other close voters did not raise objections or give any suggestions.


In my view (which, admittedly, comes from a place of already being familiar with the ground tread by these arguments) the question was always clear, but after the edit to the title there should be no reason for its closure.

Secondarily, I think it's totally understandable to be confused by a question, but I think an enormously helpful thing close voters could do is explain, as best they can, their confusion, so that the asker or other community members can better understand what needs to be edited.

I'd appreciate if everybody could look over the question and explain any confusion, so we can edit it to be as clear as possible and then reopen it!

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  • This is the third thread of a question by me in the last couple of weeks that seems clear enough to a user like yourself and was still closed (but eventually reopened and upvoted). Unfortunately, I am not convinced that some of the commenters are acting in good faith. Comments like the one you linked for example by @Conifold, almost every time, stem from a semantic misunderstanding of the question. So I’m not fully convinced if this is being done in good faith or purposefully
    – Syed
    Commented yesterday
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    @Syed I think a big part of the challenge with philosophy is that, since it's "pre-paradigm" or whatever, it can be very hard to get people on the same page. I'm certain that everybody is acting in good faith, but "semantic misunderstanding" is very easy. I guess what I'm hoping is that we can all become more aware of the importance of (as a question asker/answerer) "getting everybody on the same page", and as a commenter/close voter, doing our absolute best to explain why we're "not on the same page" and what parts we need explained to get there.
    – Kaia
    Commented yesterday
  • I agree but if you look at the recent history of this meta and the main stack, a lot of the annoyances are stemming from merely me posting the question and not the clarity or relevance of the question itself, especially if the topic has to do with god. You can see this by simply comparing my questions to other questions with fewer close votes and asking if they truly are better. Frankly though, there’s not enough people on this site for me to care even if every single person closed everything I posted without a good reason. But I’ll still always point out that there’s no good reason! @Kaia
    – Syed
    Commented yesterday
  • I agree this question is clear and gets at the nature of probability. Tag me if you get 4 votes and I'll be the 5th.
    – causative Mod
    Commented yesterday
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    @Syed I definitely understand the frustration. I don't think that phrasing it in an us-vs-them situation helps though--that just entrenches that bad feelings and makes people more likely to be cross with you in the future. There's a lot of users who I find myself clashing with because their starting places are very different from mine. (I'd be reluctant to admit that an electron "exists", much less that a "chair", "zero", or "justice", so naturally a lot of questions sound like "is a hotdog a sandwich" to me.) I think hopefully we all can explain our confusion/objections clearly instead. :)
    – Kaia
    Commented yesterday
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    @Syed I have noticed especially in comments that you are often very aggressive. That's not helping you. It's better to keep your cool and don't insult people, and don't use charged words like "ridiculous" or "nonsensical"; neutral language like "not true" or "I don't agree" will suffice.
    – causative Mod
    Commented yesterday
  • @causative I agree with the fact that I can be very aggressive, but at the same time, it is often the result of sarcastic condescension in the kinds of examples I already listed. Some of these comments later get deleted which make me look more aggressive than I really am, but nevertheless, I will take your advice into account
    – Syed
    Commented yesterday
  • @causative there are four of them
    – Syed
    Commented yesterday
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    Five now. @Syed How other people treat you is on them, how you treat them is on you. It's better to think about how you best can learn from/teach someone, not how best you can make them look bad. If the answer is "there's nothing I can learn from this person and they are hostile to anything I want to teach them," then it's best to disengage, difficult though that may be.
    – causative Mod
    Commented yesterday

2 Answers 2

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@Kaia As I'm the editor, let me just pipe up and say, that my edits were to thwart closure. There were four VTCs BEFORE I preformed the edit, and my sense of those who were VTCing were doing so based on a lack of clarity. To me, the thrust of the question was "how do you know what you really believe, if you don't put your money where your mouth is"? Which is an excellent question because it's an empirically common situation to be confronted by people who make one claim about their degree of belief, and yet refuse to act on that professed belief in a rationally consistent way. Sometimes, people lie, and sometimes they bullshit, and sometimes they lack self-insight between what they believe they believe (a propositional attitude) and what seems to be their actual beliefs.

Should the community deem the original question was clear, then the OP, or anyone else for that matter, is always encouraged to rollback any edit I make. (I have a very pro-engineering mindset towards crafting language*. I also believe my answer offers an inroad to the disparity between what it means to have degrees of belief and to act or not on those beliefs; if I'm off of Syed's intent, so be it, and I'm willing to be remediated.

Syed is also welcome to post a response to this post to clarify and engage in discussion. As I didn't VTC, feel it's a good question, I have already VTR; Syed is welcome to ping me if he any questions, clarifications, or objections. Good luck!

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  • I think your edit (particularly to the title) was really useful--it's a large reason I immediately made the meta post, because I feel like it may have already fixed the issues that people had previously that led them to close it. Thanks!
    – Kaia
    Commented yesterday
  • @Kaia I was concerned you attributed closure to my edits. As always, I aim for esprit de corps! Not easy on a libertarian Q&A forum. Feel free to ping me if I can cast a reasonable vote for reopening. (There's far too little tolerance for slight syntactic sins, IMNSHO.)
    – J D
    Commented yesterday
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    If you are right, then the question is really asking: to what extent are my beliefs transparent to me and how do I quantify them in the absence of a practical decision such as how to bet? The problem is that the poster is becoming one of these bee-in-a-bonnet questioners who keep asking the same question over and over because they don't like the answers they get. That said, I'm happy to give any question the benefit of the doubt and I support reopening it.
    – Bumble
    Commented yesterday
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The horse is dead. Stop beating it.

Degrees of belief without evidence

Does a 100% degree of belief imply that no amount of evidence can change your mind?

Is the concept of having a degree of belief rational?

When choosing between two theories, should you believe in the more plausible one? Or have a degree of belief in both?

Are degrees of beliefs represented as probabilities just emotions?

Bonus: How many of the questions listed above have been marked as answered?

Hint: It rhymes with "Hero"

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    If the problem was not clarity, but that there was a duplicate answer, then shouldn't it have been listed as a duplicate with the appropriate duplicate linked? Most philosophy has been "beaten" extensively, and will continue to be beaten through every newly conceived angle. I don't see any of those articles which ask the same exact question in the same way.
    – DKing
    Commented yesterday
  • This question is about beliefs interpreted as bets, distinguishing it from those other questions.
    – causative Mod
    Commented yesterday
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    Thanks for the links--I was also a bit surprised that this question didn't have a good dupe I could find. However, after reviewing these, I don't think any of them are the same question.
    – Kaia
    Commented yesterday
  • @Kaia What about the answers provided by those questions? Is there nothing in these answers that is applicable? BTW there are more links. These are just the most recent. Commented yesterday
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    @IdiosyncraticSoul Well, Bumble has some good answers, but they don't get at the heart of this question I think. Bumble (citing de Finetti) explains that one reason for having epistemic beliefs consistent with the laws of probability is "Dutch books"--e.g. a set of bets that you can be guaranteed to lose money on. The natural question with that motivation, though, is that there are some things you can't or won't bet on (and thus can't necessarily use that argument to motivate the association between degree-of-belief and betting odds)
    – Kaia
    Commented yesterday
  • @Kaia OK. I don't want to be the trouble maker. I'm just calling them as I see them. Commented yesterday

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