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i tried finding references to an idea (just because i'm thinking i am not the first one to have this kind of idea) and got shut down.

here is the post's link and a private discussion here

so my question is how can i follow up on this idea (in case there are no other references to it)

could i, by determining what i can create (build, contruct), determine on the nature of my creator ?

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  • Some of my questions from the chat I thought might be on topic here: Why should what you can build have anything to do with your creator? (Why assume we have a creator in the first place?) What led you to ask this question? Why would you suppose you'd find this idea in a philosophy text? As is the question is something of a 'fishing' expedition -- you don't tell us why you're asking, how it helps you become a better student of philosophy -- and the idea you are asking us for references to itself isn't particularly clear...
    – Joseph Weissman Mod
    Oct 3 '11 at 21:51
  • @Joseph i'm thinking if i were a machine and i was conscious, could i discover my creator (the humans) somehow? maybe if i have this answer, i could do the same as a human, understand on the nature of my creator. and all this because all things are interconnected. the nature of things i can create is governed by the nature of me (through the tools i create and use), which in turn was governed by the nature the tool my creator used. this is how my idea come to be
    – Belun
    Oct 3 '11 at 22:06
  • @Joseph (i am also trying to take the easy way through a hard answer by projecting my reality into a much simpler situation, one i can emulate in my mind better, because i could understand the technology behind a machine, thus i could understand the nature of a machine). i would like to follow this idea through, like a professional, to confirm it or deny it
    – Belun
    Oct 3 '11 at 22:10
  • because all things are inter-connected somehow, they together take part in a 'theme'. can i write a computer program if i am not a programmer and know the 'rules' of programming ?
    – Belun
    Oct 3 '11 at 22:38
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To quickly reiterate my major questions from our chat:

  • Why should what you can build have anything to do with your creator?
  • What led you to ask this question? Why would you suppose you'd find this idea in a philosophy text?

I said there,

As is the question is something of a 'fishing' expedition -- you don't tell us why you're asking, how it helps you become a better student of philosophy -- and the idea you are asking us for references to itself isn't particularly clear..

I do want to acknowledge that you have made some effort at unpacking your question further in chat and comments. However, as formulated the question didn't provide very much in the way of context. If you edit the question to unpack the idea a bit further and include some discussion of your motivations I will certainly reconsider my close vote.

Now, just in case it may not be clear what I am indicating by 'context' -- I mean the theoretical context of the idea (what else you might be working through, whatever you may have found out so far, etc.) Including it shows good will, and demonstrates that you have put in a minimum of effort. What I mean by 'motivation' is just talking a bit more in depth about what led you to this formulation of the question -- in other words, what philosophical problem is it helping you solve? How does someone from the community explaining the answer to you make you a better student of philosophy? And so on.

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I see where you are coming from, because I am a programmer of AI and philosopher, but what I think Joeseph and other's aren't really getting (as well as myself) is why you think that there is a connection between the two (determine your powers and determine your creator). I feel like you want to be able to logically deduce something like: "If I am able to determine what I am able to create or build, I must necessarily be able to determine my creator." But at least for me I'm lost as to any connection there and how you could make such a claim.

To me, your question is equivalent to asking something like:

"If I am able to determine what I am able to create or build, am I able to also figure out which species of sea slug lives on the geothermal vents on the mid-Atlantic ridge?"

I.E., total disconnect. My answer is thus, "ummm... yeah, sure?"

Maybe that's just me....

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The way to follow up, which I take to mean make a better second question or edit the existing one, would be to:

  • do some research to see if there are any references that mention the analogy between you /your creation and your creator/you.
  • take in to account comments in the original post and also from here.
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  • the original post was asking about references... :) that's what i need
    – Belun
    Oct 4 '11 at 17:42
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    @Belun: Ok, I see, I missed that. Then I suppose it is clarification of the question that would be needed, and made more relevant to existing ideas? Maybe you can try to articulate what you think the answer would be; obviously you can't go terribly far there, that is why you're asking!. But that will give other a better start. I'll give a substantive comment to the question there.
    – Mitch
    Oct 4 '11 at 19:05
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The question, as currently posed, seems to me to be nonsensical.

First of all, there is no visible connection between what creates a tool, and what a tool can create. Studying the things a hammer can be used for tells us nothing significant about the nature of the machinery used to create the hammer.

But, even if we skip the extra step, and try to limit ourselves to the connection between a creator and the creation, we still run into a problem of modality: is the questioner asking if it is possible that a creation can understand the nature of its creator? If that is the question, then the answer is: sure, why not? We can imagine that that might be possible. On the other hand, if the question is: is it necessary that a creation be able to understand the nature of its creator, the answer is: of course not. Why would it be?

In neither case is there any real meat to the discussion, philosophically speaking.

It seems that the questioner is hoping to make an analogy to the existence of God, but in this case, the analogy does nothing to clarify the problem.

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The title of your question has a melodic quality, and I don't think in the context of asking for help with research, it is helping your cause. I would save the catchy title for later use.

Also, from the conversations here, and your replys suggesting a relation with AI and thought experiment, the best idea I have for going forward would be to ask yourself what domain you wish to work within. That is to say, the general gist I get from the discussion suggests the next step is to re-contextualize the problem for the community. Is it metaphysical? religious? biological? neuro-science? mathematics?

Rewriting your question with this in mind may help you connect with a verifiable knowledge area--if that is the goal--or it may not... (^_^)

I appreciate the desire to determine if an idea is or is not a valid line of inquiry and sounds like this topic will require much more work on your part. Good luck.

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