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Does this site's CoC consider it acceptable to leave a comment on an Answer describing the Answer as "propaganda"? What about repeatedly accusing an Answer of lying?

Examples (lightly anonymized):

This answer is just copying <organization I don't agree with> Propaganda. If anyone wants that, they know where to find that website.

This user is posting lies in his answer. Such-and-such claim is yet another lie. What ideological commitment leads him to lie?

I usually flag these, but they are not always removed, and in some cases the flag gets cleared, which I believe indicates some moderator is explicitly deciding to allow them.

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  • If you're asking rhetorical questions about why another user is lying, that is clearly a personal attack and crossing the line. Saying an answer is copying propaganda doesn't quite cross that line but probably is unhelpful. We can discuss all points of view here, regardless of how you feel about them or how poorly substantiated they might be, as long as they're philosophical in nature. Calling the user a "propagandist" or "shill" of course would cross the line.
    – causative Mod
    Commented Nov 7 at 3:23
  • +1 While the particulars of this dramatic flair up are brought to the fore, it's important that we have explicit explanations and guidelines where conflicts tend to exist because those explanations and guidelines help in the four phases of community building: forming, storming, norming, and performing...
    – J D
    Commented Nov 11 at 16:13
  • See Bumble's insightful answer here as an example of we can have guidances suggested by capable contributors: What does it mean to "invalidate an edit" if such a phrase turns on "no longer answers a question"?
    – J D
    Commented Nov 11 at 16:13

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While I think that maybe the wording is too harsh if considered in isolation, things can be put into perspective.

Every post on your profile here does make claims about materialism and supposedly better explanations by divine intervention. There is no real reason given, it's just claims and tendentious (to the point of plain false or at least unfair exposition) writings.

Now, you expect your answers not to be met with opposition, especially if they present arguments from a particular institution without critical reflection? It's funny how you have to endure that people tell you how you never take position X seriously because otherwise you'd agree. That's not how philosophy works like. Basically, most philosophically trained people had to discuss and take these positions to a point where they could not make it any stronger...in their undergrads. It should be telling that few (none of those who end up respected in academia AFAIK) end up in agreement with Intelligent Design.

As I said, "propaganda" may be harsh. And I am not certain that you intentionally lie. What you definitely do, though, is spreading distorted versions of and misinformation about the positions that oppose yours. In other words: you are at least intellectually dishonest. And the wording of your posts is pointed enough to make me say the style is saying it's worse than just that.

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    Btw yes, I wrote that it is my belief that any capable philosophy graduate should be able to write an essay that takes ID arguments seriously and still reaches the conclusion that we have much less reason to accept it instead of evolution and abiogenesis without being intellectually dishonest.
    – Philip Klöcking Mod
    Commented Nov 7 at 18:13
  • Obviously I don't expect no opposition. The Question is whether it's too much to expect that opposition to be polite rather than taking the form of deliberate personal attacks.
    – Matthew
    Commented Nov 7 at 19:57
  • As far as I can tell, academia excels at indoctrination. Occasionally, you get something like The Altenberg 16 protesting the heavy-handed way that dissent is suppressed. Mostly, though, you get people that won't even acknowledge that there are people that disagree with them and won't listen to dissenting views. "Respect" in this context is tautological. So far as I can tell, ideology trumps evidence.
    – Matthew
    Commented Nov 7 at 20:02
  • Incidentally, Veritasium just posted a video on how there is a reverse correlation between domain-expertise and ability to overcome ideological bias...
    – Matthew
    Commented Nov 7 at 20:16
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    @Matthew YE Creationism is laughed out of scientific contexts not because you have the nerve to disagree, but because all the evidence is stacked against you, what you're saying doesn't stand up to even the most basic scientific standards, and you misrepresent, ignore or don't explain the evidence, and misquote scientists (it's way too common when a creationist quotes a scientist, that the very next sentence that scientist said debunks the creationist). Many have ripped your arguments apart, point by point, in excruciating detail, but mainstream science is instead busy with actual science.
    – NotThatGuy
    Commented Nov 8 at 2:21
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    @Matthew Altenberg 16 is a good example of how creationists misrepresent scientists. It was just a productive meeting of scientists discussing our current understanding of evolution. But creationists treat it as if those evolutionary biologists are basically creationists who reject evolution (not even close), and how this is finally the conclusive proof they've been looking for to support their theory of there being some grand suppression conspiracy and that the theory of evolution is in crisis (also not even close).
    – NotThatGuy
    Commented Nov 8 at 2:35
  • Ir doesn't help your case tkruse if you profane sacred names «Baby Jesus» etc. Note I'm more in your camp on this one than perhaps you are. Because if we don't stanch proselytism as proselytism we will end up debarring all philosophy of religion which throws out the majority of pre 20 century philosophers. Not just the explicit Christian ones line Aquinas Pascal Anselm etc But even the canon of the canon — Spinoza, Hegel, Kant, Occam, Socrates... And to @PhilipKlöcking: By removing abusive comments on meta you maje it harder to discuss what doesn't fly on main
    – Rushi
    Commented Nov 8 at 6:00
  • My personal view: Evangelism = (crypto) spam
    – Rushi
    Commented Nov 8 at 6:03
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    @Rushi No moderation in comment threads here so far. Two self-deletions, that's it.
    – Philip Klöcking Mod
    Commented Nov 8 at 13:28
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    @Matthew I do not think that religious zealotry should complain about indoctrination in academia. One of the very first things we were told in our studies was "You can take whatever position you like, and be it the moon is made of green cheese, you'll just have to present very good arguments for it." The next one is "If you want to argue against any position, it is your duty to present them as accurately, positively, and strongly as possible, maybe even find arguments they didn't even think of. It will make your argumentation that much better." - You completely fail at both accounts.
    – Philip Klöcking Mod
    Commented Nov 8 at 13:35
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    @Matthew Opinions are fine but they should not be sold as argument or even fact. And I am allergic to intellectual dishonesty no matter which position we are speaking about. This is not about what you believe, it is about how you write about it.
    – Philip Klöcking Mod
    Commented Nov 8 at 18:29
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    @Matthew 1) You do realise that these outcomes do apply to you as well, do you? Known that study before this guy made a video on it. 2) I am diagnosed with ADHD and Asperger. It does not get any more data driven than my brain. 3) If you presented a case based on data instead of omissions, rhetorical questions, and allusions, I'd be much more inclined to listen. Instead, your methodology matches exactly with that of any given conspiracy theory.
    – Philip Klöcking Mod
    Commented Nov 8 at 20:00
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    @Matthew You see people as close-minded because they don't agree with you, because you assume that anyone who sees what you've seen will be convinced, or they must have a bias (rather than considering that you might have one). Or because they don't feel like arguing with a random (possibly rude) stranger on the internet (even though they may have spent 100s of hours looking into YEC at other times). Or it's just not something they're all that interested in (you might see it as a fundamental part of eternal salvation, but for most other people, it's just some pseudoscience conspiracy theory).
    – NotThatGuy
    Commented Nov 8 at 22:31
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    Stack exchange is not a discussion forum. christianity.stackexchange is not a place to ask questions and get answers that challenge Christian faith. Physics.stackexchange is not a place to as questions and get answers that challenge physics. Philosophy.stackexchange is not a place to ask questions and get answers that challenge philosophy. YECs coming to philosophy to challenge beliefs is just as bad as atheist going to Christianity.stackexchange to write answers challenging Christian faith. Everyone else gets this.
    – tkruse
    Commented Nov 8 at 23:00
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    I didn't make any statement about Philosophy, I made a statement about the purpose of this site. I love a philosophical challenge as much as the next guy, but the answer function on this site does not exist for challenging beliefs. And that explains the tone of reactions. If it was the purpose of this site to gather the biggest challenges, then often the pseudoscience answers would have to be upvoted most. We are not here to do philosophy just as christianity.stackexchange does not exist to write a third testament.
    – tkruse
    Commented Nov 9 at 9:10
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Does this site's CoC consider it acceptable to leave a comment on an Answer describing the Answer as "propaganda"?

Sure, the Creationists here are also tolerated saying that evolution and the big bang theory are just propaganda. And that schools and schoolbooks are lying. And Creationists do that here all the time.

You have been using that freedom by the CoC plenty.

As an example let's look here

https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/101067/are-there-scientific-research-articles-published-in-reputable-journals-that-prov/101077#101077

If your definition of "reputable" is "run by the clique that systematically excludes anything that disagrees with their dogma", then I think you can guess the answer.

The journals you cite are run by "tribalists" who are dead set on keeping Creation as far from the public eye as possible. They are not neutral in the slightest.

Now obviously those of your answers you posted in the relative safety of Christianity.stackexchange, where religious worldviews and claima can be made without opposition. But you started venturing out into philosophy.stackexchange hoping to offend more people by spreading young earth creationism.

So I think maybe you should go back to Bible study and read up on "speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye". Or you can play the victim, of course.

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    Calling something propaganda, by itself, probably isn't too useful. That could benefit from (a) explaining why that doesn't meet the standards of a philosophy answer, or (b) explaining what's wrong with what's been said, on a factual or logical level (possibly by including a reference to some detailed discussion of the topic).
    – NotThatGuy
    Commented Nov 7 at 13:36
  • I'd suggest trying to do better than the bad-faith tactics that others employ. Such tactics are somewhere between merely "preaching to the choir" (without convincing anyone) or appealing to people's emotions and biases, rather than appealing to reason and evidence.
    – NotThatGuy
    Commented Nov 7 at 13:46
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    Great strategy, maybe that could also win presidential elections.
    – tkruse
    Commented Nov 7 at 13:50
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    Interacting with Creationists under the false pretence that their argument has merit is falling into their trap of trying to teach the controversy. There is no controversy, so no need for debating any such controversy.
    – tkruse
    Commented Nov 7 at 13:51
  • There are certainly many people swayed by appeals to emotions, but that's fallacy-prone thinking. Promoting rationality may be a harder than winning by also appealing to emotion, but it would be a superior victory. A more rational world has a far better future than one with more anger and hate and fear and contempt.
    – NotThatGuy
    Commented Nov 7 at 14:09
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    If an answer gets downvoted into oblivion (or it's hidden below a few dozen other answers), then it doesn't really matter either way. But if it scores higher, then you should offer more in a comment than an offhand dismissal, to convince readers of the flaws in the answer. If your comment is just an offhand dismissal, people might infer that you don't have any rebuttal, which may be worse than not commenting at all. It's not like you're inviting them to a debate. They've already made their argument by posting an answer, and the only choice you have is how you react to it.
    – NotThatGuy
    Commented Nov 7 at 14:09
  • Noting that something is propaganda is definitely useful - people don't need to waste their time pawing through it. If you want to spend your time that way, you are totally free to do so, but I appreciate the warning.
    – JonathanZ
    Commented Nov 7 at 14:49
  • I don't think you understand the difference between broad assertions and personal attacks. And your bigotry is showing, loud and clear. Maybe you should be reminding me of Matthew 5:11 instead.
    – Matthew
    Commented Nov 7 at 16:06
  • @JonathanZ, should I then post a comment on every post that's Materialist propaganda?
    – Matthew
    Commented Nov 7 at 16:07
  • I say "Go for it!".
    – JonathanZ
    Commented Nov 7 at 16:37
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    @Matthew, thanks for offering..yes, I think all of the stack exchange sites are in dire need of you highlighting materialist propaganda. In particular physics, chemistry, biology, but also stackoverflow do not give enough attention to your Baby Jesus being the cause of everything. I cannot imagine your comments would not be welcome.
    – tkruse
    Commented Nov 7 at 17:22
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    And don't forget skeptics, they really long for the latest and greatest publications of the Discovery Institute.
    – tkruse
    Commented Nov 7 at 17:24
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    I would like to ask you to abstain from sarcsm, cynism, and accusations aimed at the person, no matter how you feel about a subject (be it with or without good reason). No need to ridicule persons for their views.
    – Philip Klöcking Mod
    Commented Nov 7 at 18:34
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    @tkruse It's aimed at everyone in general and you in particular 😉
    – Philip Klöcking Mod
    Commented Nov 7 at 18:47
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    Possibly that first comment was not directed at you.
    – tkruse
    Commented Nov 8 at 6:18
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I'm upvoting because despite the personal drama on the site, the question of what constitutes acceptable offense is an important question, particularly in an era of cancel culture where anyone who is offended believes they have the right to disenfranchise and censor others. Offense is a poor measure of incivility, because inevitably, bullies figure out that they can either feign being offended or can be permitted to be offended at anything feigning victim-hood. Those gassed at Dachau were victims. Those who must tolerate that others believe Dachau was staged are not.

You cite:

This answer is just copying <organization I don't agree with> Propaganda. If anyone wants that, they know where to find that website.

and

This user is posting lies in his answer. Such-and-such claim is yet another lie. What ideological commitment leads him to lie?

Now, the question of defamation and offense boil down to, is it true? In other words, if you are copy and pasting lies and propaganda, then offense is irrelevant and there is a lack of defamation. Personally, wading through creationist and atheist arguments that are simply a steady of slough of invective is boring at this point, and I encourage everyone to strive for a pluralist and quietest approach to discourse. But if one's tactics are simply rhetorical with a healthy dose of deprivation of reason, then one should be called out for it, offensive or not.

This site has its fair share of extremely intelligent users, and its fair share of argumentative types who emphasize argument-as-conflict rather than argument-as-shared-exploration. Ultimately, explicit insults are off the table, and snarky inferences should demonstrates some sophisticated semantic acuity. Free thinkers and philosophers of all stripes tend to value freedom of speech, so as long as the offense isn't from explicit attacks and crude language, it tends to be allowed, because the freedom of speech is more important than the freedom from offense.

That being said, I'm not weighing in on your particular experiences, but want to stake out the idea that we regularly get religious folk who get offended when they are called out for their (often unaware) use of rhetorical tactics that lack dialectic merit. I myself own no fewer than three books on informal fallacies, and I come here expecting some measure of sophistication in reasoning and argumentation, and as far as I can tell, as a free and open site, there is no better place than Philosophy SE to find thinkers of all stripes.

So, if you have been maligned unfairly, don't take it so personally. There are trolls under every bridge. But if have been mindlessly promoting views without critical thinking, then it's fair for members of the community to suggest that your critical thinking skills are wanting. I've found the latter group tends to have difficulty dealing with an criticism because they often emerge from thought communities that are themselves intolerant. Jesus was certainly a victim. Giordano Bruno certainly suffered. I think there's a general reservation of critical thinkers to attribute great suffering to those subjected to snippy language on the anonymous Internet.

That being said, the moderators here are volunteers, rather disinterested in anything other than facilitating good Q&A with the sometimes feisty sidebar, and for the most part, are fair. They are often themselves subjected to criticisms, direct or otherwise (I am a prior offender of the latter method), and do an excellent job of helping to herd the proud collection of cats that gather here gasping for genuine intellectual discourse. As such, if you repeatedly flag posts and are ignored, I'd take that as a sign that you are at least part of the problem.

Other than that, please continue to contribute! A community has to welcome people to its fold, help them integrate into the norms, and encourage participation. Moderator Phil is despite his claims of being a differential engine of reason on the spectrum, actually a patient and tolerant guy with a subtle sense of humor, and other contributors routinely provide their expertise free of charge. If you come across some (fellow?) combative types, find an equilibrium, and respect the difference of opinion, even if that means you must be the bigger man (metaphorically and without disregard to non-men, whatever that means these days).

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  • Honestly, I don't consider whether "[I] have been maligned unfairly" to be the issue. The issue is that I expect a certain degree of civility which I don't think the examples cited demonstrated. (Question: do the examples reflect "respect [for] difference of opinion" in your mind?) Open-mindedness would be nice, too, but I've too much experience to have any serious expectation of that.
    – Matthew
    Commented Nov 11 at 16:20
  • Well, civility is a tricky beast. For instance, civility for a bunch of Marxist, 3rd-generation feminists sitting around talking about microagressions and toxic masculinity is one thing, and it's an entirely different beast in the chow hall of your favorite military service. You don't have any control over others' words, but you do have control over how you emotionally cope and behave in response. I'd elect to work on the latter.
    – J D
    Commented Nov 11 at 16:31
  • And to be fair, some of the tags involved in this post are no stranger to disputatious back and forth. Just remember it takes two people to fight.
    – J D
    Commented Nov 11 at 16:32

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